Big Brown injured and out of Breeders Cup

[miff]

JB,

Did not see BB this morning. The injury was substantial according to Paul Pompa\'s Stable Manager. When we spoke he was very upset to say the least.He was there and said BB worked giant.BB tore off part of the bulb portion of the hoof. Not really a career ender for most but I believe he could not run as a 4 yr old according to the syndication agreement with Three Chimneys.

Your observation re not racing in NY went more towards the somewhat strained relationship between Tricky/Iavarone and NYRA. Seems they felt that NYRA did not bend over backwards for them.I\'m not partial but NYRA can be a bit standoffish on occasion.

If not racing in NY was a juice thing, I would think it would affect all of Tricky\'s runners but as you already know,anything is possible.


Mike

[TGJB]

Yeah. Dutrow seems to be doing about the same at Belmont (at least in terms of win %), but Levine is at 12% (and only 14 of first 40 ITM) after 45% or so winners at Monmouth.

[miff]

Yeah, noticed Levine. Sometimes a barn just gets \"raced out\" and sometimes my cynicism makes me think they put the juice away for a while to defray suspicion.

Mott horses suddenly seem alive and I noticed that he still has horses for Zayat. Don\'t know why some were \"shuffled\" about.Maybe making room for the 2yr old crop.

Perhaps related to the above, I read where several prominent vets in Cali have noticed \"no real effects\" after a short re-adjustment period for horses off steroids.Is that what Dr Arthur also thinks?


Mike

[TGJB]

I haven\'t talked to him about steroids. My focus has been on TCO2, Clenbuterol, and getting blood frozen. They are taking blood for half the horses (randomly) for the BC, I\'m trying to get it frozen.

[HP]

Okay P-Dub I\'ll bite - name ONE BIT of positive buzz about Big Brown since the Belmont.  And I mean ONE positive thing.  Between Big Brown and Eight Belles it\'s hard for me to imagine a season where the top horses were ever more of a magnet for negative speculation about horse racing.  It\'s been an AWFUL year.  And I could care less how well Big Brown ran in the Derby, given what came after.  Horrible for racing, period.    

I didn\'t say it was \"a good thing\" that he is missing the BC.  I\'m saying I won\'t miss him AT ALL.  Those are two totally different things.  

I don\'t like to see a horse get hurt, regardless of who owns or trains him.  I don\'t even see Curlin and Big Brown belonging together in the same sentence.  Curlin has proved himself over and over again.  Sustained excellence over years of work.  This compares to Big Brown?  You\'re kidding?  Big Brown pulled up in June and went into self-imposed exile at Monmouth Park.  Avoided the big dances at the Spa.  All out in the Haskell to just beat nobodies and then went in...the Monmouth Stakes?!?  This is \"positive buzz\" to you?  To me he has looked like a washed up horse where the owners didn\'t know quite what to do with him for MONTHS.  The best spin you could put on any of this was...he was injured or otherwise \"not himself\" they were trying to nurse him up to one last big dance.  There are lots of other spins to put on this PD, and NONE of them are positive.  

I can\'t imagine how ANYONE could believe that Big Brown would ever regain his Derby form.  It\'s hard for me to believe that ANY seasoned horseplayers could view a BC Classic as a \"showdown\" between Curlin and Big Brown.  That\'s how the guys who go to the track once a year might view it, but that\'s not how YOU would view it, is it?  Come on.  

He was washed up in June, and I\'m glad he is out without further injury (we all know it could have turned out worse).  I wish him luck with the ladies.

HP

[jim dennis]

Jerry,

FYI -  BIG BROWN hoof injury photo (property B. Livingston/DRF)
 
Jim

[TGJB]

Jim-- I saw that, didn\'t know if it was current. They had a picture of an earlier injury in the paper a few months ago.

[shanahan]

Iavarrone showed class today in putting his suppot to Curlin in the big race after what is without a doubt his most miserable and deflating day.  Nice turnaround and will no doubt help the fan base for Curlin.

Not a BB fan, but man I feel for those guys tonight.

[Silver Charm]

I feel for those guys, the horse, and those who declared him one of the all-time greats. They were all big losers today.

The horse with another win may have stamped himself in some sort of greatness category but I can not imagine him on the same platform as Big Red and all of the others.

[RICH]

i agree 100%, its to bad he can\'t run, he would never have won, his connections were duckers. Curlin will not run, which leaves me with C. John and Smooth air, then again, I am biased.

[P-Dub]

HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay P-Dub I\'ll bite - name ONE BIT of positive
> buzz about Big Brown since the Belmont.  And I
> mean ONE positive thing.  Between Big Brown and
> Eight Belles it\'s hard for me to imagine a season
> where the top horses were ever more of a magnet
> for negative speculation about horse racing.  It\'s
> been an AWFUL year.  And I could care less how
> well Big Brown ran in the Derby, given what came
> after.  Horrible for racing, period.  

One bit of positive buzz??  For the last 2 months, the buzz has been about a possible showdown with Curlin in the BC Classic. It doesn\'t matter if you didn\'t think he could win, or for that matter if you didn\'t think he would run. Most fans were looking forward to this showdown.  Thats the buzz.
 
 
> I didn\'t say it was \"a good thing\" that he is
> missing the BC.  I\'m saying I won\'t miss him AT
> ALL.  Those are two totally different things.  

You are in the minority of fans that will not miss his presence at the BC.

 
> I don\'t like to see a horse get hurt, regardless
> of who owns or trains him.  I don\'t even see
> Curlin and Big Brown belonging together in the
> same sentence.  Curlin has proved himself over and
> over again.  Sustained excellence over years of
> work.  This compares to Big Brown?  You\'re
> kidding?

Show me the quotes where I\'ve stated that Big Brown is a great horse, or is on the verge of proving greatness?? I love how some of you take things completely out of contect.  All I said was that Big Brown missing from the BC was a bad thing from a fans perspective. I have never said he was great.  Before the Derby,  I was on record as saying BB was a bet against and i dismissed his accomplishments up to that point.  It shouldn\'t have been that hard to figure out my stance on BB.

 Big Brown pulled up in June and went
> into self-imposed exile at Monmouth Park.  Avoided
> the big dances at the Spa.  All out in the Haskell
> to just beat nobodies and then went in...the
> Monmouth Stakes?!?  This is \"positive buzz\" to
> you?

Positive buzz is that he was still in training and racing after the Belmont.  How many people predicted that he would never step foot on a racetrack again after the Belmont?? Whole lotta people. Not every fan is as hard core as you.  They don\'t dissect and analyze every move. They were just glad he was racing. Do you think the fans at Monmouth cared that he skipped the Spa??

> To me he has looked like a washed up horse
> where the owners didn\'t know quite what to do with
> him for MONTHS.  The best spin you could put on
> any of this was...he was injured or otherwise \"not
> himself\" they were trying to nurse him up to one
> last big dance.  There are lots of other spins to
> put on this PD, and NONE of them are positive.  

I don\'t need to \"spin\" anything. I\'m not president of the BB Fan Club, nor have I ever claimed to be. You took one comment I made, and you\'ve run 100 miles with it.


>
> I can\'t imagine how ANYONE could believe that Big
> Brown would ever regain his Derby form.  It\'s hard
> for me to believe that ANY seasoned horseplayers
> could view a BC Classic as a \"showdown\" between
> Curlin and Big Brown.  That\'s how the guys who go
> to the track once a year might view it, but that\'s
> not how YOU would view it, is it?  Come on.

Again, I never said that either. The BC isn\'t about \"seasoned\" horseplayers.  Its the biggest day of the year for racing. Many \"seasoned\" and \"unseasoned\" fans tune in. However, if 2 horses were to compete against one another what would you call it??  As far as regaining Derby form, its tough for any horse to repeat that effort with bad feet and missed training.
 
>
> He was washed up in June, and I\'m glad he is out
> without further injury (we all know it could have
> turned out worse).  I wish him luck with the
> ladies.

You\'re entitled to your opinion. but since most \"seasoned\" fans viewed him as a bet against on BC Day I would think they are disappointed he won\'t be there.

[APny]

HP...
If you were at Monmouth Park either of the times that BB ran there...you would have noticed the \"buzz\" the horse generated among people that don\'t usually go to the track on a regular basis.  The place was more crowded on Haskell Day with people coming to see BB than on Breeders Cup day.  Just one example of how whether you liked the horse or not...it\'s hard to argue he didn\'t generate buzz.

[jbelfior]

I agree. It brought out the younger crowd (and college drunks) and for 2 days this year Monmouth Morgue came to life.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[HP]

People stop to look at accidents on the highway too...  Is that buzz?  Others have decided I am in the minority.  So be it.

[jimbo66]

HP,

Is there any \"gambler\" at all in you, or are you just a board poster (and I don\'t mean that in a negative way).

All the reasons that P-Dub named and the others echoed are good reasons for Big Brown to have been a positive influence in the sport.  As much as I hate Dutrow (and I mean \"hate\"), his trash talking with the Curlin owners to get them to run was good for the sport, kind of like the \"weigh ins\" at boxing matches in the old days.  

But even if those reasons don\'t mean anything to you, the opportunity for you to bet AGAINST this horse that you think is so over-rated, with his \"over-rated\" reputation deflating his odds and thus inflating everybody else\'s in the race, should be reason enough to miss him.  That assumes you are a gambler.

But I find it funny that people on this board, Silver Charm and HP specifically, are critical of this horse.  I have been using the TG figures for about 6 years now, but from what I remember Silver Charm and HP pre-date me on this board and thus if not users of the figs, at least have been aware of them for quite a few years.  Big Brown\'s derby was the fastest TG figure in a derby ever.  He basically ran five wide around the track and dusted the Derby field.  That was right after he became the first horse to win from the outside post going 1 1/8 at the rebuilt Gulfstream park track.  Then he followed the Derby up with a facile win in the Preakness.  Ok, he bounced in the Belmont and the rider pulled him up.  Instead of being retired after that race, which he was 1-9 to be by most of us, they followed it up with two more races, a gutsy if not spectacular win in the Haskell (where Curlin lost BTW) and then he switched his form to turf and beat a solid G2 type field on turf.  I agree if falls well short of Secretariat, but the horse was awfully awfully good.  Horses don\'t run like he did in the derby and very few dirt horses at his level transfer their form to the turf.  Shit, the bounce in the Belmont is something all of us should have seen and some of us did.  We are sheets players and it was his 3rd race in 5 weeks, of which the first one was the fastest derby ever.

The horse will be missed by most of us, for some of the same and some different reasons.