Zenyatta-Outstanding

[richiebee]

nyc1347 Wrote:
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> overall i would say GZ is the best horse of all time...

JB:

I know this guy is buying mucho product, but...

Better get Ro Parra on the phone and tell him to round up some mares.
The best horse of all time is standing for 30K.

[nyc1347]

He was standing for $250k at one point...  He gets the props for being a special horse for his individual accomplishments and abilities beating horses that would crush so many in the present days.  Im not including breeding within that statement of him being the best of all time.  Thats a whole different ball of wax.

[richiebee]

NYC:

So I guess you would say that Zito\'s NY bred gelding, whose name escapes me, who
routinely ran negative 4s and 5s while crushing tomato cans, would also be among
the greatest horses ever?

Suggestion: If you want to seriously take part in these debates, which can be
enlightening, take some time away from handicapping Mountaineer and read
up on some historically fast horses who ran before the age of publicly
disseminated performance figures.

I would start with Secretariat and Spectacular Bid.

[nyc1347]

No richie.. i would not put that horse as one of the greatest of all times because he did not beat horses like Ghostzapper did.

You just cant compare a horse from decades ago to horses these days and mention them as the greatest of all time.  In order to be the GREATEST you would have to be able to put a horse in ANY DECADE and compare his top efforts to those of ANY DECADE.  When a man like Michael Jordan gets labled as the best of all time its because in ANY decade at his prime he WOULD be the best because of his basketball abilities.  Secretariat and Spectacular Bid did great things at THAT time for horse racing but if you realistically put their top efforts at their prime against top horses at their prime in the last 10 years with these monster negative numbers they just wouldnt be fast enough.

If you put a horse like ghostzapper who has proven to beat some of the fastest horses of all time and raced him at his prime he would be a complete force in ANY decade.  And THAT to me is a horse that can be recognized as the best or at worst very close to the best of all time.

[nyc1347]

I would also like to add that imo it seems as every sport including horse racing has its Peak with TOP athletes. It seems as time passes (with gaps at times)the bar is set higher and higher with accomplishments and abilities.  To be labeled as the greatest OF ALL TIME you need to be part of that peak level.  

A good example is tennis.. we had the days of Pete Sampras breaking records and Andre Agassi on his tail with Marat Safin, Michael Chang etc.. and THAT to me was a new level of tennis when compared to the times of the Rod Lavers, Bjorn Borg, Jimmy Connors etc.  In the present time, I personally feel we are now at a new peak with tennis with Roger Federer and Raphael Nadal.  Roger is playing incredible, has multiple wins on all surfaces and is imo the best player of all time.  

In basketball as previously posted the Peak of the NBA came when Jordan, Bird Johnson, Barkley, etc were in the league.  Since then we have seen a decline imo and I can probably prove that alone with mentioning the original Dream Team. So Jordan being part of that peak and his accomplishments and abilities we can say that he is the best of all time.

Same thing goes for Tiger Woods in Golf at his prime.   He set a new peak and new level.

With horse racing I feel its similar..  Within the last 10 years or so horses are running overall a new peak of negative numbers.  To be the best of all time a horse would have to be able to beat horses at THIS peak category consistently.  Im not saying he has to be the FASTEST of all time just once but be consistent in beating the best at THIS new peak such as Ghostzapper.  Labeling a horse as the greatest of all time cause he ran the fastest effort just once would be like labeling Wilt the best of all time for scoring 100 in a game.. just doesnt make sense.  Even QR who ran lights out against a mediocre field wouldnt make sense either.  To be the best horse of all time you would have to come out of this new level of racing.

Theres that saying in order to be the best you need to beat the best..this goes for the greatest of all time. an athlete being a peak performer at a peak time can be labeled as such cause they could go into any decade and be the best.

[richiebee]

NYC:

Please quit babbling. Look at the records:

Secretariat-- multiple track/course records on both dirt and turf. Champion Turf
Horse and Handicap Horse as a 3YO. His stakes/course records for the KY Derby and
Belmont still stand. His track record at 1-1/2 on the Belmont turf stood for 19
or so years. Also had the world record at 1-1/8 miles.

Andrew Beyer once retroactively assigned Secretariat\'s win in the Belmont Stakes
a Beyer number. It was well in excess of any Beyer number ever recorded.

Spec Bid-- set track records at both 7f and 10f as a 4YO. As a 3YO, he won the
Flamingo, Hutcheson, Fountain of Youth, Florida Derby, Blue Grass, KY Derby and
Preakness. As a 4YO the biggest problem was finding anyone to run against him,
and he walked over in the Woodward; in the Haskell (at the time open to all ages),
he faced 3 or 4 competitors, including champion mare Glorious Song, whom he
thoroughly dominated. Carried the weight as a 4YO, in excess of 130 pounds on at
least 2 occasions.

If you want to answer JB\'s hypothetical question \"Are racehorses getting faster?\"
in the affirmative, fine by me. But I think JB meant racehorses in general.
Ghostzapper was as fast as any horse in his generation, but I think if he stepped
on the track with Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, he might have been Ghostbusted.

GZ\'s on track accomplishments just not on a par with these 2 greats from the
Decade of Champions, who were so strong that even you may have ventured a win bet
on them.

[miff]

\"You just cant compare a horse from decades ago to horses these days and mention them as the greatest of all time. In order to be the GREATEST you would have to be able to put a horse in ANY DECADE and compare his top efforts to those of ANY DECADE. When a man like Michael Jordan gets labled as the best of all time its because in ANY decade at his prime he WOULD be the best because of his basketball abilities. Secretariat and Spectacular Bid did great things at THAT time for horse racing but if you realistically put their top efforts at their prime against top horses at their prime in the last 10 years with these monster negative numbers they just wouldnt be fast enough\"

NYC,

Have another Kool Aid then pull the pp\'s of Dr.Fager who\'s constant figs are faster than any horse of any generation.Said Beyer, Rags and anyone who botherd to research Fager, INCOMPARABLE!


Mike

[nyc1347]

i would love to see the thorograph figures of any of those horses back then on average to those of today.  the dirt was a bit thinner back then too.. closer to a blacktop type hard surface that is.

and i think the zito horse you may be talking about is Najran..?

[milwmike]

I think he is referring to Commentator.

[nyc1347]

well if thats who it is hes clearly not even close to be the best of all time simply cause hes a one turn horse.. u have to run at least 2 turns to even be considered.

[Footlick]

I\'m new to thoro-graph figures, but I am confused by a couple of statements.  I read earlier that when people suggested a neg number that Zenyatta would get, there was a rebuttal that St Trinians would receive a number that was much faster than she has ever received before.  But it seems that Zardana received a number much faster than she ever received before when she ran against Rachel Alexandra.  Why can it be true for her but not for St Trinians?  Thanks for your patience.

[nyc1347]

hey foot..

when we are talking about Zenyatta and St trinians thorograph number we are projecting and estimating the number they both ran 2 days ago.  St trinians probably ran a new or close to new top effort..Zardana clearly didnt run a new top in sundays race.. the race against rachel was a completely different effort 2 races back.

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

I hate to kind of agree with the king of the show wagers, but if had to name the best horse of the last 15 years, I would go with Ghostzapper as well. He was fast at different tracks and at distances from 6 furlongs to 1 1/4.  

Comparing horse further back than 15 years doesn\'t make a lot of sense to me.  The same way that comparing human athletes across multiple generations doesn\'t work.  Had that conversation with my son just this weekend about Babe Ruth.  He asked me if Babe Ruth was better than today\'s baseball players.  Now, I am 43, so obviously I didn\'t see Babe Ruth play, so I am going with secondhand information.  But my answer was that if Babe Ruth played today, and was the same exact physical specimen he was then, he would not dominate this generation.  However, if he was born in the 70\'s, with the talent he had, and was exposed to the nutrition, conditioning, training and quality of competition that today\'s players face, he would probably be the best player today.  

Both horses and humans are getting faster/stronger with each generation. A human \"generation\" is what, about 25 years?  A horse\'s \"generation\" is maybe 5 or 6 years?  Today\'s horses get better training, nutrition and \"supplements\".  Secretariat and Specatacular Bid were more talented than Ghostzapper.  But I don\'t think they were faster on an absolute basis.  (faster versus their competition than GZ was versus his, yes).

Richiebee, last point is that I would lay 6-5 that your \"appeal\" early in this thread to TGJB would not generate the response you are looking for.  As a board historian, you must remember all the times we have had this \"are horses getting faster\" discussion.  Michael D. refers to a 1\"58 and change 1 1/4 clocking and TGJB counters with his points.  TGJB has the speed of horses accelerating faster than his counterparts in the industry (Beyer and Rags).  And I would be willing to lay another 6-5 that if you asked him who the \"fastest 5 horses of all time were\", that Ghostzapper and Commentator would both appear in that list, much to your chagrin.

I just wish Secretariat was still running so NYC1347 and I could get rich making $5,000 show bets and getting back $2.10.......

[Silver Charm]

NYC, Ghostzapper went TWO TURNS I believe twice. Once at Mth on a wet track and the other time in the BC Classic at Lone Star. Where BTW the testing was non-existance and the other speed had been negotiated pre-race to \"lay-off\".

My bigger point is if we just take the \"Pure Numbers\" angle. Then a similar Preakness effort for First Dude or Lookin at Lucky and they beat or almost beat Zenyatta!!!!

If people believe that then they are really foolish.

[Footlick]

Thanks for replying.  Sorry about the SJP.  My two didn\'t run well either I guess and they were much more fancied.  French horses are sort of in and out sometimes. My question wasn\'t about Zardana\'s number in the Vanity.  It was more about the comment that if Zenyatta ran say a -3 or -4, then St Trinians would have had to run a much faster number than she ever did, so somebody said that St Trinians probably ran her top and Zenyatta ran her usual number.  I do understand that because Zenyatta\'s numbers don\'t seem to vary that much.  Is that the reason Zardana\'s number was so fast in the NO Ladies, because they projected it off what they thought Rachel would have run?  Or am I just way off base.  If I\'m being annoying just tell me I\'m analyzing it too much.  Thanks again!