Haskel

[TreadHead]

You are touching on another phenomenon, which is people wanting to bad-mouth and down-grade his performances just because he is trained by Pletcher.  Nothing I can do to argue with bias like that.

His record speaks for itself, he\'s won multiple graded stakes, each at a different race track, is a G1 winner, and has only run one losing race in his career.  Surely the competition of some of those races can be questioned, but we will find out a lot more on Saturday.  

We can certainly argue about the definition of \"great\", but if he wins this race Sat (or places and has some other G1 triumphs later this year), it\'s going to be hard to deny him that tag, unless you are so blinded by Pletcher hate that you can\'t acknowledge exceptional records and performances when you otherwise should.

[P-Dub]

Frank,

Great to hear from you. Doing well out here, will attend a rather large Italian wedding this weekend.  Cousin\'s daughter getting married. Can\'t complain about a thing....weather,job, anything life treated. My goal is to get to Saratoga some day soon, and will try to get there next year. Sounds like a blast. I\'ll leave my complaining for this board.

Tread,

Frank brings up a valid point.  It isn\'t individual hate for me, its putting his record in perspective.  What exactly has he accomplished??

He won a couple Derby preps. Bombed in the Derby, came back with a nice win. Its one thing to win a GR1 race, like the Wood, when horses are spread around the country and not all show up in one place.

\"if he wins this race Sat (or places and has some other G1 triumphs later this year), it\'s going to be hard to deny him that tag, unless you are so blinded by Pletcher hate that you can\'t acknowledge exceptional records and performances when you otherwise should.\"

I\'m not saying he isn\'t talented. But I have to say, yes it will be hard to call this 3YO great if he wins this Saturday.

You want a great 3YO??  How about Sunday Silence.  This horse won a GR1 before the Kentucky Derby, 2/3 of the TC, and won the BC Classic against another great horse. Sunday Silence and Easy Goer were great.  Do you really expect me or anyone else to put Verrazano in that class??

Comparing Verrazano to these two is a slap in the face to horses that are truly geat and have accomplishments that dwarf Verrazano.  He\'s a nice colt, no doubt.  But let\'s hold off on the superlatives, starting with the \"G\" word.

[jimbo66]

TGJB,

I must be getting dumber at an even faster rate than I thought (which is supported by my early Saratoga betting results)

I read your post 3 times and don\'t get it. At all.

Micromanage prepped at Monmouth for the Grade 1 Haskell, which is a more prestigious race than the Jim Dandy and worth more money.  Micromanage ran super in the Monmouth race.  

First off, I don\'t read that as \"afraid of Palace Malice\".  

Dodge City, maybe.

Here comes the part I don\'t understand.

But even if we cede both your points, that he is \"afraid of Palace Malice and \"wants to run in Dodge City\", how is that \"bad news for Palace Malice\'s chances?.

[phil23]

I\'m gonna have to concur that JB\'s post was...oblique...to say the least.

Having said that, what I took from it was that it\'s bad news for PM to stay at the Spa because testing is tougher there than at Monmouth (dodge city). At least I think that\'s what I think...

This weekend we finally get back to the big boys. Paynter in San Diego and maybe Take Charge Indy in the older Mon stake too. Can have your sprinters, turfers, fillies (one obv exception) but this wkend and next (Whitney) is what gets the blood really pumping. And perhaps the futures bets laying.

[TGJB]

Jimbo-- to be clear, it wasn\'t and, it was or. And I meant that if it was the last one it wasn\'t good news for Palace Malice.

 Repole doesn\'t need the money and would rather win a race (and the owners title) at Saratoga than anywhere else. And instead he\'s shipping, to run against the horse that would be seen as the toughest in either race. Which happens to be trained by the same trainer.

[richiebee]

FrankD. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


 
> Good luck and someone please have bail money as
> Richiebee comes to town for a 4 day Spa fix.
>
> Frank D.

Frankie Brew Pub, I won\'t need it. I\'m bailing out in the first two races I will
watch on Thursday.

Many purists sniff at steeplechase racing; to me it is part of the Spa experience,
and how great is it that the races take so long you can catch a few winks or run
to the brew pub during the running. All one needs to know is that jump racing is
like any other equine sport ... crooked as all hell. As such, note that
both Jonathan Sheppard and Paul Fout are running horses as part of two separate
coupled entries. Each of them additionally has a single uncoupled entry in the
race. The uncoupled horses will be double digit odds.

In the second race, Thursday\'s fastest 2YO ever and likely winter book Derby
favorite for the Day is Pletcher\'s Corfu, sold for 185K as a yearling and
pinhooked for 675K at a Barretts 2YO in training sale. 3/5 in the program, but
Asmussen\'s firster has also been working quickly.

75 degrees, maybe a nice breeze, a small weekday crowd. Will remind me of the days
in the 1970s when I used to make a slight detour to the Spa on the way from Staten
Island to St. Louis (hey they didn\'t have Mapquest back then).

Win or lose, will I be happy today?

Happier than Mayor Carlos Danger at a speed dating convention.

[trackjohn]

Richie:

  Hilarious comment on Carlos Danger..one comment..shouldn\'t he called himself
Carlos Peligroso???

John

[Silver Charm]

Now hearing that Vyjack is headed to the Haskel. Nobody is getting scared away....wtf is going on??

[phil23]

Specifically for Vyjack, I imagine that post had something to do with it.

[TGJB]

Among other possibilities.

I would love to know details of the alleged raid on Moya if anyone has them.

[TreadHead]

This was an impressive performance from a very talented horse, and I\'ll still contend he is the best of this crop when he is fully on his game.  If that doesn\'t make him \"great\" in your eyes, then so be it, but if you have to go 30 years into the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s not worth debating.

Unfortunately, I tossed Silver Max and didn\'t benefit much from his win in the horizontals, but it was nice to see a superlative horse perform up to his potential.

[P-Dub]

TreadHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This was an impressive performance from a very
> talented horse, and I\'ll still contend he is the
> best of this crop when he is fully on his game.
> If that doesn\'t make him \"great\" in your eyes,
> then so be it, but if you have to go 30 years into
> the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t
> capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s
> not worth debating.
>
> Unfortunately, I tossed Silver Max and didn\'t
> benefit much from his win in the horizontals, but
> it was nice to see a superlative horse perform up
> to his potential.

Geezus.

I named one off the top of my head. Point Given ring a bell??  I could name others.

I\'m sorry, being the best of your crop doesn\'t make you great. So, I guess every year we have a great\" 3YO??

Again, and again......I\'ve never said he isn\'t talented.  But winning a couple 3YO GR1 races with a couple nice horses doesn\'t make you great. When this horse can win a race like the Travers, or the BC Classic, then you can think about saying he\'s great.  

> If you have to go 30 years into
> the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t
> capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s
> not worth debating.

I\'ll be nice, and just say that this statement is absurd. It makes you sound less credible every time you say nonsense like this.

I can\'t wait to hear you trumpet how great Goldencents is if he happens to win the Bing Crosby.

[kekomi]

great three year olds don\'t finish 14th in the derby unless they are injured, and they don\'t run the second slowest haskell (1.50.68) since 1968. the last 12 winners won this race under 1:50--shackleford even lost this race under 1:50--from 2000, you have to go all the way back to 1978 for another horse who won it over 1:49. verrazano won the haskell in the same fractions he won the wood...

palace malice, a horse i don\'t even like, ran a mile and an 8th in 1:47.37 yesterday--he\'s tied with 2 other horses for the 2nd fastest jim dandies. the fastest was louis quatorze in 1996, who ran it in 1:47 1/5. the last time verrazano hooked up with palace malice in a speed duel, he finished behind palace malice who set the fractions.

oxbow, another horse i don\'t have much respect for, ran exactly like a horse who has only had one work since the belmont. he was walking short in the post parade. and it was pretty clear he wasn\'t running 100%--even before he was almost vanned off after the race. lukas ran another horse into the ground...

plus pletcher\'s horses went 1 and 3 in this race at a track every here seems to agree is \"dodge city\"...just saying...

i\'m not trying to be rude, i just think calling this horse great and saying you have to go back 30 years to find other great horses is...unsupportable and insulting to the great horses of 30 years ago. he\'s not even the greatest horse currently racing...check out the video of wise dan\'s work yesterday--he would have won almost any race this weekend with his breeze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsYIsbO4kVE

[TreadHead]

Sorry PDub, but your post on red-boarding jockeys vs trainers takes the cake when it comes to spent credibility.  Not interested in debating someone with opinions so ridiculous, my last post on the matter.

No, we don\'t have great 3yr olds every year, but if you can\'t appreciate the performance we saw today then you are blinded by hate for some other reason.

[TreadHead]

i\'m not the one who went back 30 years to define what \"great\" means, that was PDub.  As for analyzing the raw times compared from 2 different tracks, I\'ll be polite and reserve the words I would say for how useless that is.  If he doesn\'t earn a negative number for this win, I\'ll eat my hat.

EDIT - the race was 5 sec slower than PantsOnFire and 4 sec slower than Joyful Victory, which were 1 1/16th races.  If you can\'t see that it was by far the most impressive route on the card, not sure what else to say.