One Last Time

[Dick Powell]

You\'re right. She was a mare. 1971 seems like yesterday but 43 years is a long time.

On the show that WOR had with Stan Bergstein, Spencer Ross interviewed one of the trainers. In typical style, he asked a long-winded question, answered his own question and then asks if he agrees. The translator goes through the entire question and the trainer says \"Oui.\" End of interview.

[richiebee]

Mr Powell--

In standardbred handicap races in the olden times weren\'t the top runners always
posted outside?

[TGJB]

Sounds like a Charlie Rose interview.

[Box]

Thats funny ... speaking of Ground Loss, Mike Smith did wonders with Live for Now in the SA 4th.

[wrongway]

i\'ll vote for that. i had him singled in pk 4 and pk 5. chart: broke out fanned 5 wide 1st turn, stalked 4 wide then bid 4 wide on backstretch and second turn and into the stretch, drifted in and continued willingly to the wire. got beat 3/4 length @ 7-1 by a 4/5 shot.

[rhagood]

Can we at least agree on wind effects on times and accurate figure making....
JB can you tell us why Beyer is not interested in this component?  Speaking of track and field, wind aided results are disallowed for record setting.

[miff]

You \"young\" trotter guys forgot the great Roquepine!

[Dick Powell]

Couple of things. Wind-aided results are disallowed for world records in straightaway or one-turn races. The problem is when it is a windy day and the field is going two turns. How do you measure it\'s impact other than it usually slows the whole race down?

when they run the qualifiers for the all-american futurity at Ruidoso Downs, it is a long day with at least 15 heats. As the day goes on and the conditions change (wet track might be drying out, air temperature might be coming down, a headwind develops, etc.), some of the top horses do not make the final. The track changes can be dramatic and since the running times can determine who makes the final, there is a lot of luck involved.

Yes, harness handicap races put the better horses on the outside. At Vernon Downs, where the race secretary might assign posts for the open handicap, they give the lesser horses the inside posts but the data shows that the five hole is the best so you are actually penalizing the horse you put on the rail.

[Rick B.]

bellsbendboy Wrote:
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> My own estimate is that 80% of the breed runs
> their best outside of horses.

> bbb

Are these the classier horses?

[bellsbendboy]

Funny enough Rick, but ignoring class is your mistake.  The host works overtime to provide quality integers, yet the better players here, employ those numbers and incorporate a variety of other variables, some offered, some not, such as workouts, pedigree, current form, etc.

While there is little argument against class being the biggest determinate of how a horse may finish, your stance against, whether above your pay grade, or your choice to ignore, is costing you at the windows; which many reading this relish.

As for horses being more comfortable outside it may be 66% or even 85%; ask someone for their opinion; who knows.  Ten cents on the dollar they are in my range. bbb

[Rick B.]

bellsbendboy Wrote:
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> Funny enough Rick, but ignoring class is your
> mistake.  

I can\'t consider what can\'t be defined, and I am
*still* waiting for the \"class\" crowd to tell me
how to quantify it.

I contend that it is merely something that
manifests itself in another measurable component,
such as tactical speed, or the ability to carry speed
at longer distances, or a dozen other things that
make one horse more competitive than the other.

But this \"they stared each other down, and both knew
who was better...\" stuff is just so much crap.

> While there is little argument against class being
> the biggest determinate of how a horse may finish,
> your stance against, whether above your pay grade,
> or your choice to ignore, is costing you at the
> windows; which many reading this relish.

More ASSumption that can\'t be quantified.

[miff]

Class movement is rather easily defined as a horse going into a race to run against faster horses or to a race to run against slower horses than it usually does.

Horses moving to face slower horses than it normally faces is said to be getting class relief,ie, running against slower rivals than he usually does, just the opposite for horses moving to a race against horses that are faster than the ones it normally faces.

All else equal, a horse facing GR 1 completion for the first time would be facing faster horses than it ever has before. If you stick with \"faster\" and \"slower\" you usually find the elusive word \"class\"

Also, without question, most horses run far better to daylight, outside, and are trained that way.Many a horse intimidated by kickback and being pinned inside.Get him out in the clear is the most common instruction you will hear trainers give a jockey.

[Rick B.]

miff Wrote:
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> If you stick with \"faster\" and \"slower\"
> you usually find the elusive word \"class\".

So, class is speed.

(Which is ALWAYS how these \"what is class\" discussions end.)

Why can\'t the \"class\" folks just admit it?

[miff]

Rick,

Not saying class is as easy as speed, it\'s who\'s consistently \" faster\" at the various levels which is, not coincidentally,found as you go higher up the racing ladder.

What the class crowd is really saying is consistently faster, we just define it differently but really agree.

Mike

[Fustercluck]

I\'ve always looked at class as the willingness of a horse to run to the maximum of their ability, especially under adverse conditions.  Holy Bull\'s Travers and Personal Ensign\'s Distaff come immediately to mind.  In this view neither class nor speed trumps the other outside of a specific event.  The problem is it can\'t be quantified by anything beyond gut feeling.